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Player Resource Consortium » Neverwinter Nights » Spells, Feats, and Skills

Selectable metamagic for spontaneous casters?

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Selectable metamagic for spontaneous casters?

by: N-S, 16-09-2009 10:34 PM (#1)

Would it be possible to add [unlimited-use] metamagic feat abilities for all spontaneous spell casters? It would function similarly to the "sudden" metamagic feat line, only working as regular metamagic does, consuming a higher level spell slot.

I think it would be far more intuitive (and quickslot-friendly) than the current system which assigns duplicate spell feats for each metamagic feat you take.

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RE: Selectable metamagic for spontaneous casters?

by: ZZGashi, 17-09-2009 01:12 AM (#2)

N-S wrote:
Would it be possible to add [unlimited-use] metamagic feat abilities for all spontaneous spell casters? It would function similarly to the "sudden" metamagic feat line, only working as regular metamagic does, consuming a higher level spell slot.

I think it would be far more intuitive (and quickslot-friendly) than the current system which assigns duplicate spell feats for each metamagic feat you take.

I believe that the metamagic system is hardcoded, and the only work around was using duplicate spell feats. At least until someone can figure out something better.

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RE: Selectable metamagic for spontaneous casters?

by: fluffyamoeba, 17-09-2009 08:15 AM (#3)

ZZGashi wrote:

I believe that the metamagic system is hardcoded, and the only work around was using duplicate spell feats. At least until someone can figure out something better.

Pretty much. Psionics works this way, so it is possible to do for spontaneous casters that use the PRC spellbook. Just very, very time consuming to do.

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RE: Selectable metamagic for spontaneous casters?

by: N-S, 17-09-2009 09:26 AM (#4)

Oh, I suppose I should have specified the new spellbook system. I don't find using metamagic with the original spontaneous BioWare system difficult to use at all -- since there are (generally) fewer spells and all categorized by level it makes it possible to quickslot everything or to cast by using the numpad.

Thanks for the replies! I wasn't sure how the PRC works, so I'm glad to hear it can be done. I have very little nwscript experience, but many years in C++ and other C-like scripting languages, so if no one else picks this up I'll at least attempt it.

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RE: Selectable metamagic for spontaneous casters?

by: DM Heatstroke, 17-09-2009 10:04 AM (#5)

N-S wrote:
I have very little nwscript experience, but many years in C++ and other C-like scripting languages, so if no one else picks this up I'll at least attempt it.

If this is true, you should have *no* problems with NWScript.

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RE: Selectable metamagic for spontaneous casters?

by: ZZGashi, 18-09-2009 01:55 AM (#6)

N-S, This should help you get a good start.

http://nwvault.ig...mp;id=1340

Edited by ZZGashi 18-09-2009 01:56 AM

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RE: Selectable metamagic for spontaneous casters?

by: N-S, 19-09-2009 01:31 AM (#7)

Thanks for the link

. I'll be sure to let everyone know if I start on this. I also want to add a dialog entry for selecting every spell during level-up if possible.

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RE: Selectable metamagic for spontaneous casters?

by: fluffyamoeba, 19-09-2009 10:06 AM (#8)

N-S wrote:
Thanks for the link

. I'll be sure to let everyone know if I start on this. I also want to add a dialog entry for selecting every spell during level-up if possible.

That one's not possible. There's no ability to modify the levelup screen at all.

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RE: Selectable metamagic for spontaneous casters?

by: N-S, 19-09-2009 11:18 AM (#9)

Oh, again I meant with the new spellbook. Sorry! It's just kind of annoying having to hit the '1' key 20 times if you don't need to prepare the spellbook in order to learn all available spells. Or 200 times when importing a character....

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RE: Selectable metamagic for spontaneous casters?

by: N-S, 20-09-2009 08:29 PM (#10)

Well, I added the new spell selection option, and that seems to be working out. My real problems lie with adding new metamagic feats. (Trying to understand this tangled mass of spell scripts is giving me a headache!)

I ran into two problems so far. One is that sudden empower/maximize is never un-applied (but that's easy to fix). The second, is that if I understand DnD rules, metamagic is meant to stack together. But the new spellbook system overrides the metamagic value for metamagic spell feats; using Sudden Maximize with Empowered Fireball for example wouldn't work.

I could only come up with the following approach to solve this without involving a lot of refactoring.
1. Calling PRCGetMetaMagicFeat() in NewSpellbookSpell() and combining metamagics.
2. Checking for the new metamagic feat abilities in NewSpellbookSpell() for spontaneous casters -- increasing the spell level in the process -- and combining metamagics. (EDIT: This would not stack with the metamagic spell feats though!)

My question to the kind and generous people of this forum: Can you see anything wrong with this?

Thanks!

(Later edit: I think I found a better way, by adding a UseMetamagicOverride flag to ActionCastSpell() defaulted to off. It uses PRC_METAMAGIC_ADJUSTMENT by default now, which is already handled by PRCGetMetaMagicFeat(). Sounds simple. I just hope it works.)

Edited by N-S 20-09-2009 10:25 PM

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RE: Selectable metamagic for spontaneous casters?

by: fluffyamoeba, 21-09-2009 08:15 AM (#11)

Its that only casters using the PRC spellbook could do it. Divine casters, wizard and sorcerers using the bioware spellbook would miss out.

Also, a lot of the spells would work with combined metamagic, but some won't because of the way they check what metamagic feats were used (most do a bitwise and, but I don't think all do).

Edited by fluffyamoeba 21-09-2009 08:16 AM

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RE: Selectable metamagic for spontaneous casters?

by: N-S, 21-09-2009 09:23 AM (#12)

Ah, I know about the problem with the BioWare spellbook, I just don't mind. I never had complaints using metamagic with it, but I do with the new spellbook system, for 2 reasons: there are far more spells, making quickslotting annoying, and there is no organization, making numpad casting impossible.

Plus, and this part really has me excited, it's going to be so flexible now! I'll probably have a hard time moving back to prepared casters after being able to toggle metamagic at whim, and combine it as well!

Thanks for the info about the spell scripts. I didn't think of that. I completed the new metamagic system last night (except for the spells, I guess I'll need to look at those), but I won't actually have time to test it out until later on this evening. Cheers!

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RE: Selectable metamagic for spontaneous casters?

by: N-S, 21-09-2009 09:50 AM (#13)

I had a quick moment, apparently that's going to be quite a bit of work.

PS C:\Users\N-S\Desktop\prc_spells> gci | select-string -pattern "nMetaMagic ==" | measure-object

Count : 265

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RE: Selectable metamagic for spontaneous casters?

by: fluffyamoeba, 21-09-2009 02:13 PM (#14)

N-S wrote:
I had a quick moment, apparently that's going to be quite a bit of work.

PS C:\Users\N-S\Desktop\prc_spells> gci | select-string -pattern "nMetaMagic ==" | measure-object

Count : 265

There's possibly some more in the includes too.

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RE: Selectable metamagic for spontaneous casters?

by: N-S, 21-09-2009 09:03 PM (#15)

I don't think so. There were 2 instances in the new_spellbook include, but I already fixed those. In fact, it was upon noting the genericity towards metamagic that the thought of combining it occurred to me.

But regardless, even if I hold off on updating all those spell scripts, the worst that will happen is that metamagic won't be applied to a specific spell. I'd probably only be combining it at most 1 out of 20 casts anyway.

Doing this whole thing was incredibly simple, and wouldn't have been possible without the PRC. Thank you (and the rest of the PRC developers) for all the hard work and dedication put into it!

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RE: Selectable metamagic for spontaneous casters?

by: N-S, 22-09-2009 09:01 AM (#16)

I finally had time to test it, and it seems to be working very well, with no more modification on my part. Except for Quicken Spell of course, which is a let-down, but should have been obvious to me before. Anyway, a quickened spell-feat can always be combined with the other abilities.

I really love that I can eliminate the now-redundant versions of the spells from appearing, many of which (like Fireball) would be taking up 5 radial entries. It takes me almost a minute to get to the level 9 spells using the mouse on my level 20 Warmage.

Is there any interest in merging this work with the PRC? I think, please correct me if I'm wrong, that it's more in line with D&D -- not that I'm a reference, as I haven't played it. Doesn't the Psionic system also get similar abilities?

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RE: Selectable metamagic for spontaneous casters?

by: fluffyamoeba, 23-09-2009 08:51 AM (#17)

How did you deal with people trying to cast metamagiced spells beyond their allowed level? And does it allow eg. empowered + maximised or just combining a normal one with a sudden one? I can't remember how much feedback metapsionics gives the player, but how easy is it to figure out which feats you have active at any one time (short of casting a spell

)? I think it would be a nice thing to have in the prc to stop the ever expanding subradials.

Whether or not to enable combined metamagic is another issue. To enable it for all casters would be a lot of work. To only enable it for spontaneous casters using the prc spellbook seems to me to penalise other casters too much. What do other people think about this? (However, if you had fixed all the spells to use combined metamagic, I don't see a problem with using those fixes so that anyone wanting to fully implement it had slightly less work to do).

As some people may remember from the old forum, motu99 was working on combined metamagic for all casers for the PRC. I will try find time to look over the bits of the old forum I pulled from google cache to see if that discussion was one of the ones I managed to grab. If so, I'll post it somewhere as it might be useful to someone. I can't even remember if he sent us the actual code or not

.

I need more free time and brain cells

edit: also do feel free to go on irc to ask questions. Someone might even answer one...

Edited by fluffyamoeba 23-09-2009 08:52 AM

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RE: Selectable metamagic for spontaneous casters?

by: N-S, 23-09-2009 11:49 AM (#18)

Thanks for the invite to IRC, but I dare not install an IRC program again. It used to be an addiction of mine.

All metamagic would be combined. Everything from Sudden Extend, to Empower Spell and Maximize Spell, as well as the metamagic spell-feats. A player casting a spell higher than level 9 through metamagic is stopped and informed.

It's not easy to figure out which metamagic feats are active, but as they only affect one spell, it should be easy to remember. You can determine precisely which level the spell was cast at based on the floating feedback message that says You have X castings of spells of level N left remaining."

I already added a switch and everything incase a person doesn't want metamagic combining used.

I again don't know why this didn't occur to me before, but it should be possible to support this for prepared casters too! That thought never crossed my mind, as the actual combining idea came second to just adding in spontaneous metamagic. I'll look at that perhaps later tonight.

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RE: Selectable metamagic for spontaneous casters?

by: fluffyamoeba, 23-09-2009 04:35 PM (#19)

There would be one more issue that would need some work. At the moment, where possible, the PRC uses the bioware spellbook. As it's easier to use than ours, it's reasonable to expect that's what people want. I think some people would want the option of using the PRC spellbook for their wizard/sorc/bard/prepared divine caster if that gave them combined metamagic, whereas others would want to keep using the bioware one.

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RE: Selectable metamagic for spontaneous casters?

by: ZZGashi, 23-09-2009 06:32 PM (#20)

Well at least if you did add metamagic combining to all spellcasting classes, it would also give a reason to put in classes that are based more on metamagic.

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